Americans asked - UK or USA Medical care systems

08 Oct 2020 14:56 #48322 by Warty

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08 Oct 2020 15:13 #48323 by Avionyx
Land of the FREEEEE

unless you want to buy alcohol on a Sunday (or at all)...or from a non stated owned shop. Or you need your appendix taking out, or are giving birth, or get knocked down by a car, or have an allergy, or need childcare, or education.

But don't forget GUNS

Or the right to free speech
unless you say something that offends someone, then that'll cost you big

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08 Oct 2020 15:15 #48324 by Avionyx
^No offense intended to any of my many American friends, you are all wonderful people and live in a beautiful country with many gorgeous landscapes and access to far cheaper aviation than the rest of us. I love you all but some of the things you have to pay for seem absolutely crippling to the rest of us on the outside.
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09 Oct 2020 17:05 #48335 by flash
...and then there's the Canadian health care system

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10 Oct 2020 13:02 #48341 by thebroons
Having lived under the UK's NHS and the American health care system, I contend that both have their warts.

USA - no doubt for me that this is the world's premiere health care system - if you're rich. The reality is that the majority of Americans are not wealthy enough to be able to access it effectively.

UK - a "not bad not great healthcare system", but will provide good care if you can wait long enough for it

IMHO, a blended system is the way forward. I'd advocate a national / universal coverage for all kids under 18, for catastrophic / trauma medicine (ER + cancer) and "wellness checks / maintenance" at the GP level for all. All else is provided via a private plan - you pick what you want and how much you're willing to pay for that.

Personally, if I had to choose, I'd still choose the NHS. Mostly because for most people they are not needing to access its services too often (either USA or UK), and the NHS tax is riding at 9% of gross income (at the highest tax bracket) whereas the "average" American pays 12-15% for essentially the same service level.

Being a pragmatic sort, if what service I'm getting on an average basis is much the same in either system, I'll take the one that costs less of course! Hence for me the NHS wins.

Another facet of US health care is that your healthcare insurance doesn't cover eyes or teeth, and you need a separate insurance (with more premiums) for each of these (vision insurance and dental insurance). These healthcare areas are included under the NHS, and generally the costs are better per treatment on the UK side o' the pond.

Last, in the US remember that the healthcare is delivered (fiscally) by insurance companies. Their first goal is to return as big a dividend to their stockholders as they can. Not to heal you. Not to make you better. As such, there are countless instances where procedures and their costs are denied by insurance companies, limiting what doctors can use to make you well. There is essentially a conflict between the doctors, whose oaths are to provide the best qualitative care, and the beancounters, who watch the bottom line. You can only imagine how often $ trumps care.

But that's just my opinion. Full disclosure - my personal politics lean just left of center. But only a wee bit.

I thought I'd chime in as I have had experience of both, and I know a bunch of people in the US healthcare system, including Mrs. Broon.

Cheers,

G

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11 Oct 2020 17:31 - 11 Oct 2020 17:34 #48348 by Vodoun da Vinci
Gary pretty much sums up my position except I have never personally experienced the NHS System nor Canadas System but have a number of good friends to compare notes with.

The System in the US is fabulous as we have all the best doctors and procedures from all over the world practicing medicine here and I constantly ask why they are not practicing in their own countries. The answer to that is that Americans Pay 2X-3X as much for our care as anyone else in the world....the issue is that we are not living any longer nor is our infant mortality less than comparable Systems. We are being cheated while the Doctors and Care Providers and insurance CEO's are (literally) getting filthy rich and this is why it will never change.

The AMA and all these Corporate owned and operated hospitals (and insurance companies) pour *Billions* into the pockets of our politicians to make sure the small few get richer and richer while some people go without care or lose their homes/retirement/*everything* if they get seriously ill and did not have insurance to cover their treatment. A friend in California tells me that 70% of the Homeless in that Sate are in that predicament because they got sick and the cost of staying alive consumed everything they had or will ever have to to wage garnishment to pay for the Care.

It's Hopeless here. Most of us lower and middle class/income folks are just living paycheck to paycheck and terrified we will lose everything from stuff like Cancer or job loss due to the Pandemic - many of my coworkers tossed in April are without health care insurance because they do not have $1200 a month for a 2 person and $1600 a month for a Family. Where does one find $1600 a month with no job and no Hope of getting one? We liquidate our Retirement and sell our homes and give up the kids College Fund.

One of the reasons America is so violent....most of US are watching the 1% consume 90% of the resources. While we starve and go without. Hopefully this will get solved in the coming Reformation but it's a ways off yet. :(

VooDoo
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12 Oct 2020 09:03 #48350 by enrogue
I've experience of 3 systems: NZ, UK & France

The NHS in the UK is good, but I would say not particularly well organised - it's heavily laden with managers & consultants. Almost everything is included - GP visits, prescriptions are fixed price etc.

NZ has public hospitals & an equivalent of National Insurance that pays for emergencies/accidents & sickness (all treatment is free). Elective stuff isn't. GPs are private practices - you pay for visits, but it's subsidised based on your income, prescriptions are subsidised the same way from memory. There is private health insurance to cover non emergency stuff if you don't want to wait - the main private healthcare provider (60% of the market) is a *non profit*. Ambulances are provided by a charity (free!)

My older relatives like to complain about the system in NZ, but I never had to wait for a GP visit (unlike in the UK where the GPs are overloaded). I think the small barrier (i.e. payment) to see a GP is an ok deterrent for pointless GP visits (we're talking NZD$60 - for reference a Big Mac costs NZD $6.60, under 13s are free, low income earners pay ~NZD$20)

I like the NHS, but like I said I think it's overloaded with management, measurement & consultants (both business & medical). Family back home complain about the NZ system, but it works & to be honest its what the country (of 5 million) can afford

I had an accident in France & I'd forgotten to get my European Healthcare card done, so I had to pay for everything. I was prepared for a massive bombshell, considering (broken shoulder requiring x-ray, painkillers, private doctor, and later a hospital visit). In the end it cost me about £600 - it would have been more if I'd had to stay in a hospital but in the end I didn't. The care was excellent, quick & nowhere near as expensive as I was expecting!
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12 Oct 2020 09:21 #48351 by StuartC
NHS in Scotland is slightly different from Englandshire. In Scotland all Prescriptions are free.
GP Practices are generally Private ( whole of UK ), but NHS Funded and GP's class themselves as " Self Employed" as they have to pay their own Tax etc, but in reality, that was the contract they all agreed to and it lets them fiddle their own books such as pocketing cash for staff they get given rather than hiring staff etc. 2 of the 3 GP practices I used to work for had this blow up on them and the practices were Bankrupted. ( combination of overpaying themselves out of practice funds while still getting a monthly payment from the NHS based on patient numbers on the practice books ). Those practices were wholly absorbed back into NHS and they lost their 90k wages and put on a Salaried GP wage of £45-60k per year. Anyone mention Karma ?.
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12 Oct 2020 19:20 - 12 Oct 2020 19:31 #48360 by Vodoun da Vinci
The thing tat is so frustrating here is that America has *huge* resources and financial depth that other nations could only dream of. And yet despite this huge amount of possible financing Health Care belongs only to those rich enough to afford it. People who have no business making money off of others health issues are getting rich as middle men.

America has enough resources to feed, house, clothe, educate, and medicate *every* man, woman, and child easily but we feel that making .01% richer than God is more important.

Again...this is why there is so much violence, this inequality and extreme distribution of financial resources to the upper 1% while the rest of US worry about living makes people very cranky. It is a never ending pressure. No Justice = No Peace - Know Justice = Know Peace. I literally know people who have lost their homes and are homeless because of medical bills.

It's disgusting. In the first video, a statement is made that in the UK, NHS is paid for by a tax on income averaging $200 - $300 a month. My Wife and I are paying *$1200* a month for Health Carte Insurance which is $600 a month per person. Literally 2X what folks in the UK are paying. Add to that that my insurance pays nada, nothing, jack shit until I have forked out $4000 per year out of my pocket. Until I have met my $4K deductible a pay it all out of pocket. I don't think UK folks have any idea how it works over here and I'm absolutely positive Americans have no clue about how folks in the UK deal with this.....we call it "Socialism" so it's automatically forbidden to be discussed as an option. Ignorance and Religion have a lot to do with it.

VooDoo
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13 Oct 2020 15:44 #48364 by eagle12
This is how it looks in Germany. We have private health insurance, i.e. for one man and one woman and a half portion.


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13 Oct 2020 20:07 #48365 by Warty
! Trigger Warning !
If you are the kind of person who worries constantly that someone less fortunate than yourself may be getting something that you have, you should read no further.

Vodoun da Vinci wrote: .. I'm absolutely positive Americans have no clue about how folks in the UK deal with this.....we call it "Socialism" ..


By those standards, the system in Spain must be almost Communist. Basically, the only criteria are to be here and be in need of medical treatment. And you are even allowed to self-identify as a "person in need of medical treatment". No need to wait to be run over by an ambulance or found wandering around bleeding profusely from all orifices. If you think you have a problem, real or imagined, just turn up at a med-centre/hospital or phone for an ambulance. They'll sort you out and won't bill you. It is covered out of general taxation. Prescription drugs, you may have to pay towards but it depends on your ability to pay.

Forward, Soviet!

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14 Oct 2020 11:12 #48369 by Vodoun da Vinci
Americans call *everything* that benefits *everyone* "Socialism".....we seem to want (they seem to want...) to keep everyone divided into have's and have not's. The general consensus is that if you can't afford it, you don't deserve it...work harder ya lazy POS.

One Politician likened it (health care and affording it) to buying a dress shirt. His position is that if he goes to buy a new $600 dress shirt and he can't afford it, he doesn't get to have it. Same with Cancer treatment....if one does not have the money to afford it, they don't get to have it. We have politicians and citizens that equate having an expensive car or having expensive clothes is like health care. If you can't afford it then just die.

Giving it to all and making all pay for it is viewed as "Socialism" which is, of course, the root of all evil in the world and leads to failure at every turn according to my fellow Americans.

It's why I want to get the hell out of here. I don't belong here anymore. Healthcare is for *Everyone* - not just rich folks. Or rather it should be.

VooDoo

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14 Oct 2020 13:08 #48372 by eagle12

Vodoun da Vinci wrote: Healthcare is for *Everyone* - not just rich folks. Or rather it should be.


I agree with you

Health insurance for everyone has nothing to do with socialism.
It has something to do with human dignity.

Capitalism is the right form of society but not super mega capitalism. That is my humble opinion.

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14 Oct 2020 15:39 - 14 Oct 2020 15:40 #48378 by Vodoun da Vinci
Another problem with America that is causing violence is the fact the American Capitalism has reached the end of it's run....like Slavery and Feudalism before it it has reached it's logical conclusion and we need another System. Ever play the board game Monopoly?

Monopoly was created to mimic Capitalism and if you have ever played the game we realize that after a few hours of play the Game comes to the point where all of the assets are in the possession of one player. No one else can recover at that point and one by one they are all forced out/bankrupted. So, eventually the only way to continue is to wipe the board and redistribute all of the stuff so another game can begin.

This is where America is now.....all of the assets are in possession by .01% of the population which then pays our Politicians to stack the deck against the other 99.99%. There is no Way forward with the current game/System. We need to wipe the board and start a new game and that process is beginning. And it's gonna be painful and scary (it already is) and hopefully the US System can evolve and solve this going forward with a peaceful Revolution. We are already deep in a Civil War that is cold and hopefully will stay that way.


All it's gonna do is take one big spark. This election in a few weeks might be that spark.

VooDoo

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14 Oct 2020 18:48 #48379 by eagle12
I am impressed.

Your description fits exactly into the black that an american citizen writes this incredible !!! Where super capitalism prevails. If everyone had your attitude, Trump would already be buried.
But the game is not over yet !

Economic experts and political scientists in Germany say: That the United States will emerge stronger from this crisis (division of the population, super capitalism). No matter how long it takes.

A reformed form of society would be desirable. Here in Germany, too, the gap between rich and poor is widening (for example Hartz 4 laws).

It's a very old movie, but I think the idea is very nice.
From 2.40 to 3.12. That is of course utopia !!!

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14 Oct 2020 19:16 #48380 by StuartC
Old movie my Arse. A movie made in the 1960's or earlier is an old movie.

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15 Oct 2020 16:35 #48401 by eagle12
Stu, it's unbelievable that you were receiving color television even before 1960.
Silicon Valley of Scotland ???

When can we go for a wonderful red scottish beer together (we two handsome men) ?
Oh no oh god ...... I forgot you only drink lemonade !!!
William Wallace your bro would turn in his grave if he knew that. :) :P

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15 Oct 2020 17:12 #48402 by enrogue
The inventor of the television (inc colour) was a scotsman:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Logie_Baird
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15 Oct 2020 17:13 #48403 by StuartC
My family still had a black and white TV in the Early 1970's. In fact it was 1978 before TV arrived in my town properly. Before that, you could get TV from Ireland if f you were on the east side of town. The west side could not receive it.
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16 Oct 2020 12:14 - 16 Oct 2020 12:19 #48411 by eagle12
Interesting, Stu.
Color television became possible in Germany in 1967.
My family only had a color TV at the end of their 70s. The first color TVs were very expensive and my family couldn't have afford this.

BTW for the non-treki fans because the treki fans should know that. ;)
Release date was 22/11/1996.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_First_Contact

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