Hello from the Midlands, UK

23 Jun 2016 21:01 #29325 by ScottBouch
Hi all, I just joined up as I heard that you are developing some EE Lightning models, and I wanted to offer any information and experience that would help the project out.

I have spent almost every Saturday for about 20 years volunteering on two T5 Lightnings at Cranfield, Xs452 and XS458, so can offer knowledge gained from real hands-on experience.



I now have a family, so can't spare every Saturday, but I do offer free remote tech-support to aircraft preservation groups, which so far have included Vulcan, Shackleton and Jet Provost.

Regarding the Lightnings I have the aircrew manual for F3, T5 and f6; the pilots notes for F3, T5 and F6, and ground handling notes for T5.

I'm also a gas turbine control system engineer by trade, dealing mainly with Industrialised Avons, so can supply Acceleration and Deceleration data to help make engine response realistic.

I hope to be of some use, Cheers, Scott.
Attachments:
The following user(s) said Thank You: Algernon, StuartC, Porcius, Richard, Warty

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

23 Jun 2016 22:16 #29326 by Warty

ScottBouch wrote: . .I'm also a gas turbine control system engineer by trade, . . . .

First of all, welcome aboard :) And what timing! Maybe you could add something to this thread . I'm ex -avionics so my only involvement with them was when they wouldn't start - not at all uncommon (normally a transmitter or Start Control Unit fault). Once they got to self sustaining and the governing took over they were of no real concern to me.

Cheers

Mac 10.14.1 Mojave, FG 2018.3.5
The following user(s) said Thank You: ScottBouch

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

24 Jun 2016 00:28 #29328 by Algernon
Hi Scott. Thanks for registering. You already sound like a man much after our own hearts! :)

I've been loosely looking after the Lightning project, and have been itching to move it up a few levels in my dusty to-do list. Looking forward to working and flying with you!
The following user(s) said Thank You: ScottBouch

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

24 Jun 2016 06:47 #29331 by StuartC
Welcome aboard the nutty train.
The following user(s) said Thank You: ScottBouch

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

24 Jun 2016 08:01 #29334 by geed
Welcome aboard Scott and thank's a lot for your help offer!!!

That cockpit picture is amazing and really get's my brain going with ideas... :)

What a timing. Just yesterday I got the aproval to use amazing jet engine sounds (mailny of the J-79 and Orenda 17). It would be nice to come up with a new and realistic way of dealing with engines under YASIM so that I can create code for calulating the right sounds for the different stages the engine will be in.
The following user(s) said Thank You: ScottBouch

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

24 Jun 2016 08:52 #29337 by ScottBouch
Hi guys, thank you for the welcomes!

Warty,
I'll take a look at that other post for you.

Algernon,
Thanks, I look forward to talking some more about the projects, and see them develop!

StuartC,
Glad everyone is a bit nutty!

Geed,
As far as sounds go, I enjoyed watching the Lighting videos on YouTube, but they sounded like a high-bypass engine, not a pure turbojet as the Avon is. I can forgive this, as I'm so impressed with the work done so far on these models, but it would be nice to have the aircraft sound realistic too. I do have a few videos somewhere from the cockpit of XS458 on high speed taxi-runs, recordings of ambient cockpit noise, but also typical intercom and radio sound heard through the headset. Do you use different sounds depending on weather the view being used is internal or external? Is there a way in FGFS to use two sound cards (or separate L and R to two mono channels)? One for ambient cockpit noise, and the other for intercom / radio? Just thinking of adding realism to a built simulator - you can have a loudspeaker behind the instrument panel for the ambient sounds, and radio / intercom to the headset. I'm considering building a panel out of real instruments, and have just started to figure things out: www.scottbouch.com/aircraft-cockpit-instrument-simulation.html one of these gauges I'm using is from an F2A Lightning.

I realise that most people out there wouldn't know the real cockpit and radio sounds, so wouldn't know the difference, but I do have the experience so can offer help to get it sounding more like the real thing if this is seen as something nice to have.

I've had a lot of experience with the radio and intercom systems of the Lightning (which shares a lot of common parts with a lot of other British aircraft; Vulcan, Canberra, Hunter, JP, Gnat, etc... See: www.scottbouch.com/classic-aviation.html and: www.scottbouch.com/PTR-175-and-ARC-52-ge...cal-information.html

Is there a forum location somewhere where I would be better off discussing Lightning details? (ie: better place than the welcome lounge?)

Cheers, Scott.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

24 Jun 2016 11:05 - 24 Jun 2016 11:14 #29343 by Richard
Welcome Scott. I'm hoping you'll be able to provide high quality photos of cockpit parts as we can use these to really improve the models. For my F-15 I used a lot of closeups to get the instrument and panel textures and I think it works really well. A good artist can get something similar but what you get from a photo is the imperfections that look real. For the SpaceShuttle I used Jon Brack's cockpit panoramas to get the basic textures for the cockpit. The shuttle was harder as the geometry needed a lot of correcting and I had to remove shadows. A straight on, well lit, photo of an instrument or panel is the best, ideally without shadows and with two photos with needles moved so we can get what is behind.

The sound system that FlightGear uses positions each of the sound producing elements inside the 3d space; with a direction and cones to control the volume. So it can be very directional, and as you move around the craft the position on the L/R channels will move. Equally standing in front of the engines you'll mainly hear the LP compressor and intakes, whereas at the back you get more of the blast noise. I spent a lot of time tuning the sound on the F-15 to get something that I thought was realistic. For the sounds I separate out the engine stages based on N1, N2, and P7 (PB). The internal and external use the same sound model - but it can be tweaked (on the F-15 I adjust the external volume as the canopy closes)

The F-15 has a more detailed engines model to support this and the augmentation ignition (which uses pressures) - but this is in JSBSim. It should be possible to achieve a similar thing using either the autopilot rules or Nasal, but obviously where JSBSim excels is adding and using lookup tables.

I can't speak for everyone but when I'm making a model the goal is always to make it as realistic as possible. The barrier to this is often getting the data, images and sounds.
The following user(s) said Thank You: geed

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

24 Jun 2016 12:21 #29345 by geed
Thanks to Richard for the detailed description of the sound system.

I might like to add that I really appreciate and like what Richard did for the F-15! Very nice soundscape and I will try to follow a lot of those steps closely.
What I want to add to this is a more realistic exterior blast and intake Sound as well as the transitional sounds of the engine(s) over the whole spectrum of engine load and rpm (plus other values that might be interesting?). Also inside the cockpit I want to add more of the (small) room added to the muffled sounds. Also 3D spatial placement where it is possible. Is has to be noted that with the standard HRTF function for 3d spatial sound the rear information is pretty vague and the listening sensation often far from perfect. We also still have some audio positioning and distance attenuation bugs in Flightgear.

We simply have a nice engine sound but it is mostly the sound of a plane being idle on the ground (maybe adding a bit of throttle to move the plane on the ground) but we don't have the sound of an engine at full MIL thrust and around that. I now have the possibility to get exactly those sounds in a good quality and turn them into something amazing :)

Richard, maybe you can free up some minutes sometime in the future to describe in detail what you did where for the sound. That would help me a lot regarding decision making. I will have a lot of raw sounds from those engine tests and I want to get the most of it.

I am especially aiming for recreating the nice spatial distortions and interferences of sound waves produced by two engines moved through the air. Also if possible the interior and exterior bass components of the sounds both in single player and multiplayer (if you are the tower for instance, you should make that same amazing experience of a jet flying by...)
I would absolutely love to add interior rattle and rumble sounds. Every time the aircraft touches its envelope maybe or while flying though turbulences.
Also, if we add realistic startup sequences for our future creations I would love to add all those little sounds happening during that process such as mechanical parts being moved, cooling equipment and exhausts working and such.

I might add that I logged hours in MIL aircraft in the German Air Force but only in piston engine driven planes so I know those sounds from inside but not of a jet engine driven plane.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

24 Jun 2016 13:02 #29346 by ScottBouch

geed wrote: Thanks to Richard for the detailed description of the sound system.
I would absolutely love to add interior rattle and rumble sounds. Every time the aircraft touches its envelope maybe or while flying though turbulences.
Also, if we add realistic startup sequences for our future creations I would love to add all those little sounds happening during that process such as mechanical parts being moved, cooling equipment and exhausts working and such.


This has just given me a great idea If I ever get a Lightning sim together, to add vibration under the seat at low RPM... the Avon shakes from startup to 6400 RPM, in fact on Industrial Avons with vibration monitoring systems, the engine vibration transducers are disabled below 6400RPM as there's no way it's be allowed to run! i guess it's just the nature of the conical tube compressor shaft and disk arrangement that makes it resonate over quire a broad RPM band.

So, I've got a lot of Lightning info, photo, etc.. where is best to place this information to help model development? (I don't know my way round the forum yet).

Cheers, Scott.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

24 Jun 2016 13:06 #29347 by ScottBouch

Richard wrote: Welcome Scott. I'm hoping you'll be able to provide high quality photos of cockpit parts as we can use these to really improve the models.


Shame I didn't join here sooner - last week I was at CockpitFest in the UK, and had access to many different cockpits (Buccaneer, Phantom, Lightning F6, Gnat, etc...), but didn't feel the need to take stacks of detailed photos! I have lots of general photos from previous years though.

Again, where is best in the forum to post such info to help the development? Is there a "resource" area?

Cheers, Scott.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

24 Jun 2016 13:35 - 24 Jun 2016 13:37 #29348 by geed
Yes, I am sure we need to include all these vibrations as low frequency sounds as well as maybe camera shake - OR - maybe as some sort of shake animation on the main frame and cockpit??? I saw something like that in DCS (their Gazelle had that) and I really liked it as it resulted in a pretty realistic look.

Stuart, would it make sense to add all the files, Scott talked about, to the cloud?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

24 Jun 2016 13:46 #29349 by ScottBouch
I'm happy to host the files on my website if it helps (as you may have limited server space). I can put together a "Lightning resource for modellers" page or two.

No doubt people will save files locally to work form anyway.

As for the Avon vibrations, it isn't so bad that you'd see parts shaking, but you definitely feel it.

Cheers, Scott.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

24 Jun 2016 15:53 #29351 by ScottBouch
Hi,

So taking my suggestion further, I've just created this web page to share my information:
www.scottbouch.com/English-Electric-Ligh...ce-for-modelers.html

So far, just some of my videos around the cockpit, but I'll add high-res photos, and also more info from other parts of the aircraft too.

Cheers, Scott.
The following user(s) said Thank You: StuartC

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

24 Jun 2016 16:51 #29353 by thebroons
Hi Scott,

Welcome to the fantastical and whimsical world of FGUK But watch out now...most o' them guys are crazy...but not me.
I'll just be lurking in the baaaaack.

:evil: :whistle:

G

Any stairway is a stairway to heaven if you’re clumsy enough.
If your shirt isn’t tucked into your pants, your pants are tucked into your shirt.
Your stomach thinks all potatoes are mashed.
Most of the sky is actually below your feet.
The object of golf is to play the least amount of golf.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

24 Jun 2016 19:24 #29364 by ScottBouch
Thanks The Broons!

This wouldn't be the first group of aviation lovers I've met who are barking mad!

Cheers, Scott

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

24 Jun 2016 20:51 #29372 by Porcius
Time for some Lightning Pilot quotes :

'The wings are only there to put the aviation lights on'

'It's just a rocket with wings'

And from 1 American pilot after accidentally lighting the AB whilst on nose up - FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKK !

Porcy :P

Lightning DOES strike twice.

Watchmen Quote - "I am looking at the stars.... Thier light takes so long to reach us. All we ever see of Stars are thier old photographs"

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

24 Jun 2016 21:00 #29373 by ScottBouch
Haha, thanks Porcy!

And to add, they were also known as the "Frightening"...

And you can see why when proportionally a higher percentage were lost than Starfighters.

Cheers, Scott

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

24 Jun 2016 21:09 #29375 by Porcius
Yeah, NOT the Deathening as only a few pilots were lost mainly due to the MB5 Ejector Seat. The others were in extenuating circumstances.
An absolutely unique aircraft of which without many things could be different (Bears in the Air off Norway) and I believe, the Tornado & Eurofighter would not have developed. Welcome aboard, moosh.

Porcy

Lightning DOES strike twice.

Watchmen Quote - "I am looking at the stars.... Thier light takes so long to reach us. All we ever see of Stars are thier old photographs"

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

24 Jun 2016 22:11 #29379 by ScottBouch
Once had an interesting experience when working on XS452, an ex-pilot Ian Small came to pilot a fast taxi run for us, and brought with him a photograph of a Bear taken from the cockpit of 452 - the same aircraft! It really brought home the purpose of these aircraft - I'd worked on it for years, learnt a lot of engineering trades, and always just took it at face value, but it was only at that point did I feel a bit different about it.

(Mk4 seats of various sub marks in most of the Lightning variants, apart from the prototypes)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

24 Jun 2016 22:37 #29380 by Porcius
Correction (mk4b Seats) accepted. BUT bloody hell , what a ride !!

Porcy

Lightning DOES strike twice.

Watchmen Quote - "I am looking at the stars.... Thier light takes so long to reach us. All we ever see of Stars are thier old photographs"

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Time to create page: 0.368 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum

Latest Forum Posts

PM Notifications

You are not logged in.

PM Mailbox

You are not logged in.

Latest updated downloads