So, do ya'll have Antivaxers on that side of The Pond?

05 Sep 2021 20:18 #51056 by geed
Oops, yeah I think, I mixed up references. My answer then was to Hans instead of you eagle ;)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

05 Sep 2021 20:47 #51057 by enrogue
Gary - thanks for that post, it was a very good explanation for me

My wife is a scientist like you (but in genetics) and has tried to explain this stuff to me (an engineer with a background in geophysics), but I think her patience with me is much less than yours is with us :D

I try to answer my friends questions about the vaccines & information like this is very useful
The following user(s) said Thank You: thebroons

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

05 Sep 2021 21:56 #51064 by hans05
@Timi:

Ps. I don’t wear masks either unless I absolutely have to. If there’s a service I need that I’m not going to get without wearing one then I’m not making a big deal out of it and just wear the damn mask.


Actually I do it almost like you. I just did not want my post to be longer than necessary, so I skipped describing this part.
Just that I think thrice whether or not I reallyreally need a service that requires to wear a mask.

@geed:

For you, eagle, I hope you can find your faith in the system somehow again as you and we would benefit from that as we could go on working on our concerns together again instead of separating ourself in this country as it is happening during the last six to ten years.


I guess this is for me?!
Well, let me clearly state that I do not mind people getting the vaccine nor have I ever treated masked people any differently than non-masked people. So I do not consider myself on the separating side.
On the other hand, you can have a guess how "tolerant" people who are into the Covid-fear react towards me.

Would be interesting to hear in how far separation in the last six to ten years has happened. Or did you mean months?

@Gary:

My sole source are the scientific papers published by reputable journals that as peer reviewed.


That is great and pretty much what I do (for the really important issues).
Very strange that we end up having a 100% opposite result.
It would now be extremely interesting to look at important studies together and find out, where our analysis starts to go apart.
Since -obviously- I know a LOT of people who strongly disagree with me, I offer all of them the above. Not a single person in the last 18 months was willing to do so. To me that is no less than a little peace of confirmation.

I know around a dozen virologists, all of which are dedicated to masking, and expect their employees to do likewise. All are significantly encouraged to vaccinate. With all their experience and knowledge, perhaps they are on to something. Further, I have worked with viruses for 5 years, have read the literature published and have a good understanding of how these things work.


Mhh, yeah, now we are off from the first point: To consider only studies.
Maybe they are on to something...maybe not.
I have seen people with Prof. Dr. titles say that Sars-Cov-2 is a very dangerous virus and I have seen people with Prof. Dr. titles that say the opposite.
I have seen people with Prof. Dr. titles say that Covid-19 is a very dangerous and frequent disease and I have seen people with Prof. Dr. titles that say the opposite.
I have seen people with Prof. Dr. titles say that the vaccine is very effective and not dangerous and I have seen people with Prof. Dr. titles that say the opposite.
I am pretty confident that for every single studie, supporting your opinion, that you show me, I can show you one or more that will state the opposite (I have a collection of downloaded studies to support each of my decisions).

So I will never say you are wrong. But also I do not that easily let someone tell me I was wrong.

hans05 notes that there are scientist with different understandings, beliefs and interpretations. This is the nature of modern science, it is not static but evolutionary, as more data over time allows for the further development of what is known.


Again I could not agree more.
But.....at least in Germany there is no public discussion about the corona issue, which would be necessary if you have scientists disagreeing on it. There are several well known Prof. Dr. people in Germany and Austria (and elsewhere) that come to similar results as myself who are not ever invited to any discussion on TV or in big papers. Instead, for the slightest criticism of any of the corona measures or the vaccine they get removed from youtube, Facebook, Twitter or Instagram.

I would be so much more open to anti-corona-measures and the vaccines if only once there was a discussion between the main heads supporting the corona-stuff and the main heads who criticize all of it. In public, on TV, Live and no editing! Access to all studies to be able to verify arguments instantly.
If you know of any such an event, please direct me to it. I have not yet found one.

Only now has there been a RL study reported (will come out soon in the peer reviewed, top tier journal Nature) that addresses these. It meets the gold standard of a controlled, blinded and statistically relevant study of over 340,000 participants.


I am looking forward to reading this. Nevertheless there already has been such a study in Denmark which "proved" that mask have practically no effect. Interesting, no?

This is the definitive word, and demonstrates beyond a shadow of a doubt that masking is an effective tool in preventing Covid virus spread.


Mhhh, I have problems with this statement since you yourself wrote:

"This is the nature of modern science, it is not static but evolutionary, as more data over time allows for the further development of what is known."

to which I agree a lot. So there can not be a definitive word in science in my world of science.

it is proven that the risk of death from Covid is approximately 1.1%


I heavily disagree and I can find you some studies that say different. Also I am quite ok with numbers (if I may say so myself) and can calculate myself from the official numbers that this can not be true.
But here again, it would be so nice to sit together with a nice cup of tea and go through the data and studies to find where and why our results are to different.

With regards to the vaccine I have read and studied so much about it that I do not dare to start with a discussion about any of the details here since I believe it is too complicated.
Since you are a scientist I will nevertheless indicate two of the many troubles I have with vector and mRNA vaccines:
1. Typical mRNA vaccines are "programmed" using over 4000 RNA-bases (I mean one of the G, U, A, and C). I am no biologist but rather computer scientist. Us computer guys say that it is impossible to write relevant code without errors. And we only use two bases (1 and 0). The producers of the vaccines have to create millions of RNA consisting of 4000 bases for only ONE shot. And they have to produce billions of shots. I do not believe that this is possible without faults. Another issue related to this high number statistic evaluation is the reality about our DNA NOT being modified by RNA. Which seems to be only ALMOST true. Studies indicate that between 0.01% and 0.1% of the copy processes of relevant RNA-sequences can be so faulty that the DNA in that cell nucleus can be modified. Looking again at the order of magnitude of the number of cell nuclei being penetrated by a vector vaccine, I prefer to stay put for 5-10 years and see what happens to all the vaccinated people. If no problems show up then I might start thinking about getting the vaccination :-)
2. As far as I know the contents of the vaccines are not published by the producers. Again coming from the computer side, I do not use proprietary software (like Windows) if ever possible (some HW-drivers and firmwares just do not exist in open source, damn!). My trust in a vaccine with unknown content is not very developed. Of course we know at least the RNA-sequences quite well, but as far as I know only from reverse engineering from some courageous labs. But that does not increase my level of trust to the producing companies.

So, Gary, I really appreciate your post a lot and I read it all and carefully. And I am not saying you are wrong and I am right. Just that I have digested a lot of information in the past 18 months and making me change my decisions takes much more than what can be written in a few hundred lines in a forum.

@eagle:

There will be no 3rd Reich 2.0 in Germany.


Uhm, to me it makes no sense to state such a thing. 95% of the World population of 1932 could not imagine that the 3rd Reich will do what it actually did in the next 13 years. I see no reason why this would be impossible to repeat.
I would never dare to state "There will be..." or "There will be no...". There is no way to proof the one or the other.

Your opinions are too negative for me.


I am so sorry to hear that. If it is too bothering to you please disregard my posts. I have no intention to hurt anyone.

If you have a glass of water and the water reaches the middle of the glass, is it half empty or half full for you?


If I am thirsty, I am happy that it is half full.
If my wife is about to throw it at me, I am happy that it is half empty.
If my house is on fire, I am pi*** off because what the hell will half a glass of water help, or even a full glass.

I guess you are trying to indicate that I am a pessimist. Which I am not.
Try to guess who is more affected: You by your fear of Covid-19 or me by the fear of dictatorship? You don't know. Also I do not know.
Why are you making this assumption?

Based on your answer, you will always judge reports, studies, etc. in terms of your psychological state.
Based on your body's hormone balance. That's no joke.


No, I will not ALWAYS judge in terms of psychological state and body's hormone balance.
I am IN a psychological state and body's hormone balance while judging, but not always will those decide my judgement. Studies that are so imprecise that they leave space for psychological state and body's hormone balance to be the basis for my judgement on it, is not scientific in my world of science.

Anyway, I know you are just trying to be kind to me. So maybe just do not take me too seriously and -as said- maybe just do not read my posts if they are too negative.
The following user(s) said Thank You: geed, eagle12

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

06 Sep 2021 13:04 #51066 by eagle12
@Hans

I keep it simple ..... have sex! It's normal, it's healthy, it's fun. Everything is reset to zero.;)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

06 Sep 2021 14:38 #51068 by hans05
@eagle:
If I had time for things like "sex" I'd rather be joining the flight nights again ;)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

06 Sep 2021 20:03 #51070 by Vodoun da Vinci
Replied by Vodoun da Vinci on topic So, do ya'll have Antivaxers on that side of The Pond?
If masks do not provide any useful protection I wonder why *every* Surgeon and Dentist wears them?

I have both in my family as well as Pathologists and Immunologists and Virologists who I trust because I have known them my entire Life...nieces, nephews, brothers and sisters. I am continuously amazed at the number of people who feel that they are absolutely certain they have the whole Covid/masking/vaccinating thing figured out and it's that the vaccine is dangerous and masks are not effective.

I am amazed.

VooDoo

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

06 Sep 2021 21:01 #51073 by thebroons
I'm just going to say this, that although there are polar differences here, I'm happy that our level of discourse hasn't fallen into a flame war or anything unbecoming of us all as a group bound by a common interest. It's a rare thing, and I do hope that y'all see that. Fuckin' love y'all, ya manky bastards! :woohoo: :kiss:

G

Any stairway is a stairway to heaven if you’re clumsy enough.
If your shirt isn’t tucked into your pants, your pants are tucked into your shirt.
Your stomach thinks all potatoes are mashed.
Most of the sky is actually below your feet.
The object of golf is to play the least amount of golf.

The following user(s) said Thank You: Vodoun da Vinci

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

06 Sep 2021 22:28 #51074 by Vodoun da Vinci
Replied by Vodoun da Vinci on topic So, do ya'll have Antivaxers on that side of The Pond?
Agreed Gary...probably the reason I started this thread.

My point: I have uber smarty Pants people in my immediate Family who are Immunologists, Pathologists, Virologists, Dentists, Surgeons, whose perspective and credibility are beyond question for me. These folks are working with the US CDC and the Global WHO and they are on the front lines of this information.

I am amazed that the information I get from them (Family) on weekly video conferences is *Wildly* variant from the information /facts that immerge daily from "Credible Sources" that are not credible.

My Bad. I'll close this thread with a simple math formula. In the US and other nations, literally, in July and August (Northern Hemisphere) 97+% of the Dead are unvaccinated and anti maskers. This from Family who work directly with international agencies and have absolutely no incentive to lie or manipulate data. If you are not vaccinated and will not mask you *will* likely contract the next Covid variant which is already being tracked.

Darwin is still active in my opinion - Won't vax/won't mask nominates you for the "Darwin Awards" and I'm fine with that.

If you are. Do what you believe is right but know that literally *all* of the stats and data are being weaponized so it is, at this time, literally impossible to make an informed decision as *ALL* the date and information we see on Media and The 'Net is weaponized to manipulate and confuse us. It simply does not jive with the information and data I get from people I trust implicitly who have no reason to lie to me. Family...really smart Family.

Make your choice and reap the results. Ask yourself why surgeons and Dentists all wear masks. Ask yourself why 97+% of the current dead are un vaccinated.

I'm out. Good luck and I mean that.

VooDoo

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

07 Sep 2021 07:17 #51075 by timi
Attachments:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

07 Sep 2021 09:58 - 07 Sep 2021 10:00 #51077 by geed
@timi: Naahh don't think I can concur here :)

Although there are still some members of the human race that end up like him in the picture the most if us won't as we got this thing called science for a couple of thousand years now and it's actually working :) not always at the speed we would like it to work but it does and it helped us in so many occasions to survive as sole human beings and a human race in total.
Just think if such a basic thing as getting an appendix removed instead if dying from a sepsis at a young age. That actually happens to a lot of human beings. You can bring up countless examples where science helped us, for example in getting to know the reason why not to touch both ends of an open electric circuit. :D

Basically we are in an early stage at understanding the mechanics if the virus, ruling the current pandemic but we are going on gathering more information about it's mechanics and the ways we can intervene here to save ourself from dying from those mechanics effects on our bodies.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

07 Sep 2021 10:21 #51078 by hans05
@Gary:

I'm just going to say this, that although there are polar differences here, I'm happy that our level of discourse hasn't fallen into a flame war or anything unbecoming of us all as a group bound by a common interest. It's a rare thing, and I do hope that y'all see that. Fuckin' love y'all, ya manky bastards!


Yep, amazing you folks. So separation seems to not work properly among us :)

@Voodoo:
Having such a family is great. As I said, I still question what family and friends say and try to make up my own mind and decisions. But that's only me.

If masks do not provide any useful protection I wonder why *every* Surgeon and Dentist wears them?


One possible answer is, because they have to.
The vast majority of my students only wear masks because they have to. During exams they were allowed to take them off and 95% of them did. In breaks I hardly see a single student wearing a mask. They are aged from 15 up to about 25 years.

In addition, the mask seems useful for protecting against bacteria. Bacteria are of a size of down to 300μm and can be stopped by medical masks (at least the direct breathing stream, the contaminated air is still escaping from all open gaps). Viruses are of size down to 10nm. No mask which allows you to breath properly can stop this. Assuming that viruses have to hide in aerosol particles in order to survive and that those particles are mainly bigger, maybe the masks can filter SOME of it. But then we are in speculation territory. Nobody has ever "seen" a virus in an aerosol particle and it is purely a good guess how big the particles must be in order to transport a virus. This statement is based on several studies that I read myself. Maybe you have studies that proof otherwise. Links to them would be appreciated.

Another thought about wearing masks which puzzles me and obviously not you (maybe you can ask your family to solve this issue for me):
Dentist have to work very closely to the open and completely uncovered mouth of their patients. At least until October last year they were mainly wearing medical masks (not KN95) which are proven to NOT protect you from viruses exhausted from others but maybe only protect (a little) that you, who wears it, will infect another person.
In my world of science, there must be a significantly higher rate of infections and deaths in this group of dentists if the masks would be stopping the virus. Which is according to my best knowledge not the case.

And a last thing: I do actually NOT wear a mask in school because I have a medical certificate that says I can not wear a mask (which is true for when I strain myself, e.g. loud talks or climbing stairways). I already had 3 students in my class that where PCR-positive and one of them with significant symptoms. Neither myself nor any of the other students got infected. Is that any kind of proof? No, of course not. Just one example....

My Bad. I'll close this thread with a simple math formula. In the US and other nations, literally, in July and August (Northern Hemisphere) 97+% of the Dead are unvaccinated and anti maskers.


To be honest: I do not have time do investigate this for USA, so I assume it might be correct.
But looking at Israel, UK, Iceland or the Seychelles, things look drastically different.
In Germany they also claim that the vast majority of postitive PCR-tests, hospitalisations and deaths are due to unvaccinated people. Just that I found nobody being able to expain to me, how that was found out. At this moment hospitals do not combine reports to RKI (German CDC) of happenings with vaccination/non-vaccination. So I do have to wonder how those numbers are produced (not saying they are wrong, just saying that I would like to have a clear understanding how they are produced before I can really believe them).

I am continuously amazed at the number of people who feel that they are absolutely certain they have the whole Covid/masking/vaccinating thing figured out and it's that the vaccine is dangerous and masks are not effective.


I hope that you do understand that by no means I am certain or would state that I am certain about shit regarding the Corona stuff. I confess that I have NOT figured out anything. My statements are temporary according to my current level of knowledge and are prone to change whenever I see new information.
But I do claim that MANY non-Corona-critical people act according to what you criticize above: They constantly try to explain me, why I am wrong and stupid.

Darwin is still active in my opinion - Won't vax/won't mask nominates you for the "Darwin Awards" and I'm fine with that.


I absolutely agree to this. If I die from my decisions, then I die from MY decisions which makes my death justified by Darwins laws. And I will die happily. Just as if I had died from driving Motorcycle, doing mountaineering and rock climbing or off-piste skiing. I did all of that on my own decision and free will and all of that IS dangerous. I thought in USA the free will is regarded very important?!
I claim, as of now the outcome of Darwin's laws with respect to masks and vaccination is open since both of us are still alive and kicking. We will see in 5-10 years :)

Good luck and I mean that.


Thanks and same to you! :)
My hope is that we BOTH make it!!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

07 Sep 2021 13:24 #51080 by flash
Meanwhile, in Toronto...

www.blogto.com/city/2021/09/hospitals-sp...e-their-front-doors/

It's turning into an episode of the Twilight Zone :ohmy:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

07 Sep 2021 22:07 #51082 by hans05
Meanwhile in a french hospital:



Just in case some of you are not that good with the french language:
It is the personnel of the hospitals that strike against "Pass Sanitaire" which is the proof of vaccination. In some cases they stopped entire hospitals by stopping to work and demonstrate against the obligation to get vaccinated (e.g. Marseille) which means vaccinated were on strike together with the non-vaccinated (who are losing their jobs).

Strikes like this take place in France since some time.
It is always a matter of where you focus on. I try to capture as many perspectives as possible.

That aside I have to admit, demonstrating against vaccination before hospitals is not something I would personally do.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

08 Sep 2021 08:33 #51085 by enrogue
On the subject of correlation != causation:

www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations
The following user(s) said Thank You: hans05

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Time to create page: 0.265 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum

Latest Forum Posts

PM Notifications

You are not logged in.

PM Mailbox

You are not logged in.